Stacker - dangers? - Page 2

Steve · #16 (**permalink**) March 26th, 2008, 07:18 AM

Quote:

Originally Posted by jojoluvsu2

I took a Nutrition, Exercise and Energy Metabolism course in University. One section talked about all types of weight loss pills. We actually got into the "medical" ingredients, which physiological pathways they are supposed to affect, and looked at some empirical, published studies conducted on the pills vs placebos.

When we got to ephedra, specificall the ECA stack, we looked at the different pathways that each of the components (ephedra, caffine and aspirin) are supposed to work on. Basically the ephedra speeds up your SNS (your "fight and flight", heart-rate increasing system) while caffine and aspirin block the PNS (the "rest and digest", heart-rate decreasing system). End effect, increased heart rate and decreased ability for your body to reset your heart rate to normal. Side effects of increasing SNS, decreased appetite. Why? Evolutionarily it wouldn't have benefitted our ancestors to get really hungry while running from a lion.

After learning the physiological principles of the ECA stack, we looked at case studies that resulted in the ban of ephedra. (Mostly) inactive, over weight people already predisposed to heart disease and hypertension, taking ephedra in various forms to lose weight. Of course, they were having heart attacks, strokes etc. But they were predisposed to those conditions. Looking at a study using ECA and young, healthy 20-30year old males, resting heart rate, on average, increased about 20bpm from an average of 70 to an average of 90. 90, while considered above average, isn't dangerous. But these males had healthy hearts, and no predisposing heart conditions.

Next, we looked at a few weight loss studies involving the stack. On average, people lost more weight than those taking the placebo. Even on a very calorie restricted diet (1000cals +/- 200cals) people were still losing weight. Basically they concluded that ECA does induce weight loss by increasing BMR. We didn't look at anything regarding long term use of the stack (the studies we looked at lasted about 6 weeks), or weight change after termination of the stack.

The science does point to ECA being an effective weight loss aid. But it is dangerous in certain populations.

So, that christmas, I thought why not? I was a fairly healthy person so I wasn't too worried about the side effects some experienced. I ordered ephedra (you can still get it online, disguised as asthma medication) and did the whole stack, while eating not a whole lot. My justification was "nothing else is working". Looking back, BULLSHIT nothing else was working! I was eating too much, not exercising enough. Period. Anyways, the "recommended dose" for the ECA stack is 3x day. So I started. First of all, I couldn't sleep anymore. And I took my last round at about 5 in the evening. Still had me going a mile a minute at 12. I didn't want to eat much, but I was having horrible heart burn that I get when I don't eat enough. I was gittery, all the time. And not the "I have so much energy I can't sit still". I definetly would plunk my butt in front of the TV, but I would sit there and shake. I didn't have an increased desire to work out, or use that extra energy productively. I couldn't focus, literally. I'd try to read emails, and my eyes would go in and out of focus. It was as if, like my hands shaking, my eyes couldn't stay in one spot for long. I could only handle it for 6 days. I lost 3 pounds in those 6 days. Did I change shape? No, so I doubt it was fat loss. Would I have lost weight/fat if I had stuck with it? Probably. Would I have put it back on after I stopped it? Probably. Like I said, I didn't increase my time the the gym, or eat healthy, just less. Nothing to indicate long term, lifestyle changes.

You, if you're healthy to begin with, probably aren't going to have a heart attack while doing a stack. Are you going to feel good while taking it? Who knows. All I know, from personal experience, I felt like shit while taking it for less than a week. I feel 100x better hitting the gym hard, and eating a yummy spinach and shrimp salad after. As Steve (sort of) said, there is a proper use for thermogenics (like ephedra) which some people do. I am far from qualified to make a judgement of what "proper use" is, as I have no experience and don't know of anyone who has encorporated them into a proper routine.

Conclusion: ECA stack isn't necessarily going to cause heart attacks and other adverse, acute health problems in healthy populations. Studies indicated that it will induce weight loss. But, in most cases, it is a lazy cop-out for people not willing to put in hard work into their weight loss. And I would guess, as with most quick fixes and fad diets, once the person stops using the stack, the weight will return.

Sorry this got so long

I hope at least some of it was informative.

This was an excellent post, really.

Thanks for sharing that.

And I should have added.... ya.... even if you are a candidate for experimenting with thermogenics (meaning you don't have any contraindications to the use of such things relative to your health) that doesn't mean it's not going to affect you negatively.

Jojo gives us a prime example of this here.

Excellent.

jojoluvsu2 · #17 (**permalink**) March 26th, 2008, 07:26 AM

Quote:

Originally Posted by Poncho

No seriously ... If someone offers you a glass of champagne at New Year's Eve, would you accept? I am pretty sure the majority would, despite the fact that alcohol, which will hopefully soon be rated an class A drug, is in fact 8 times more harmful than Amphetamine, or speed if you will. I am still amazed by how uninformed and uneducated some who pester me with lectures are. Scary.

Please be very careful about lecturing other people on giving uninformed, "stupid" answers and then making a statement like this. 8x more harmful? Can I please see your scientific reasoning for chosing this number?

brunettegoddess · #18 (**permalink**) March 26th, 2008, 07:30 AM

Quote:

Originally Posted by Poncho

It's not just about losing weight. I want to feel alert and awake. I constantly feel tired, moody, and restless. I have been feeling like that for years, and i want it to change.

While I can't hand over any personal effective advice on the tired and restless part, I did read an article in Women's Health magazine a few months ago about a study where taking calcium supplements helps to regulate mood swings in women. I started taking two calcium supplements everyday (in addition to the calcium in my diet and the extra in my multi-v) and I can say that I barely have mood swings when I PMS and I'm just overall a lot more relaxed in general. Granted these could be side effects of a better diet and exercise, but the first month I was eating right and exercising I did not experience the 24/7 blissful mood that I do feel now with taking the supplements. For all I know I'm having a placebo effect, but as a woman I don't think you can ever go wrong getting more calcium into your body.

Poncho · #19 (**permalink**) March 26th, 2008, 09:30 AM

Quote:

Originally Posted by brunettegoddess

For all I know I'm having a placebo effect, but as a woman I don't think you can ever go wrong getting more calcium into your body.

Thanks for the tip! I will definitely look into it. I have tried other pills in the past, like vitamins and iron, but nothing has helped.

Quote:

Please be very careful about lecturing other people on giving uninformed, "stupid" answers and then making a statement like this. 8x more harmful? Can I please see your scientific reasoning for chosing this number?

I've had long convos with my friend who's an educated physician, we've been talking about this in school, I've read it in newspapers, books, online and offline. This should get you started: House of Commons - Science and Technology - Fifth Report

A reminder, this is completely off topic, I want to get info on Stacker, not debating alcohol. Please turn to another thread if you want to discuss this issue (I will be happy to join) but right now I am only interested in Stacker. Let's keep this thread clean of anything else. I wanted to ask you, did you feel fine after you stopped taking the pills? How do you feel today, and how long did it take for your body to get in balance after the pills?

nol3afclover · #20 (**permalink**) March 26th, 2008, 09:56 AM

Is that you in the picture? If it is, you look a hell of alot like that chick from Smallville.

And no, Stackers in my own experience isn't what you're looking for. Some in my immediate family take Stackers in order to stay awake on their long OTR (Over the road) jobs and thats about the only thing it does; and after the effect has worn off, it leaves you with this hot/colt tingling sensation. I've tried them as well, not for weight loss, but to stay awake, and I can tell you that even though I didnt' take it for fat loss, I didn't lose anything anyway. I did however lost over 50 pounds JUST by counting cals and doing occasional cardio.

burneeed · #21 (**permalink**) March 26th, 2008, 10:31 AM

There is alot of great info on this thread... I am against others in taking diet pills... I have a exception to that.......

I have lost a ton of weight over the year, I take stacker 2... not on a Continous base. I take a pill before a game... always have. THese pills are almost like drinking 2 energy drinks the amount of sugar and caffeine in them. It is not the same without the effedra in them... there were a few kids in high school who would take these all the time for games,practices stick times etc...

Im all for taking these for Sport enhancement, but I could NOT image taking these pills 3x per day as recommended on the bottle!

Alta818 · #22 (**permalink**) March 26th, 2008, 11:13 AM

Well Poncho.....to tell you the truth, STAYING AWAKE, was my MAIN reason to take them when I did years ago, when I was in COLLEGE, because many times I had to do them ALL NIGHTERS and I couldn't do it by myself, so I had this friend that would take the STACKERS and they would help her STAY up and as a SIDE EFFECT.."SHE" lost all kinds of weight, so I figured , "WHY NOT?"...I need the HELP,....and I am "ASHAMED" to say that I got so reliant on the pills for a while, UNTIL they stopped KEEPING me AWAKE, and STOPPED giving me the JITTERY feeling because my body was accustomed to it....and they did cause me to have MINOR grouchiness and dry mouth as well as all the other symptoms other people have stated, but I figured as Long as they were doing the JOB it was OK.....NOW...the most shaming part of ALL of this is that WHEN THEY DID STOP doing the JOB...I ACTUALLY "DID" turn to "SPEED" because of that SAME friend.....and I was HOOKED though, for a VERY VERY long time, I felt I had it all under control....the SAD part is that I didn't.....I stayed on MAJOR drugs, STAYING PRODUCTIVE meanwhile, for about 2 years....it was REALLY sad, and the friend who introduced me, she had to MOVE TO ANOTHER COUNTRY to go into REHAB for years because the temptation was too STRONG here....she is WELL and BACK now, and as for when I stopped "SPEED"...I turned BACK ONTO STACKERS, in the HOPE that I would stop "SPEED" for good, and it did HELP....it was only AFTER I tried SPEED for a couple years, that I "REALIZED" then, that STACKERS were almost "IDENTICAL" to speed in a BOTTLE....and the feelings and side effects are almost the "SAME" for both...they can BOTH get out of control, because the dosage amounts with the STACKERS become TOO LITTLE and you end up increasing and increasing......so I STOPPED COMPLETELY, and I am HAPPY to SAY now, that for 6 years I have not tried ANY of the ABOVE.....

I realize that PEOPLE do sometimes have a DEATH WISH, and I BELIEVE "I DID" as WELL....there is a lot of SOUL SEARCHING one must do to get OFF these drugs, and I HOPE that you do SOUL SEARCH, but NEVER have to go down such a PATH OF ADDICTIVE SHAME, as I DID....

When I stopped taking the PILLS, it was a CONSTANT struggle, to NOT POP any, I would think about them CONSTANTLY, and the SIDE effects remained for a WHILE even though I did stop taking them....I'd say probably about 3 MONTHS....believe it or not ....THEY SCARE THE HELL out of ME now....and I am NOT trying to scare YOU, because YOU SEEM LIKE A VERY INTELLECTUAL individual, and GORGEOUS if that is YOU in the PICTURE.....

AS WELL, I DID READ SOME OF THE HEALTH RELATED ISSUE "THREADS" you POSTED b4 also, and I AM SORRY about ALL of the HEALTH issues YOU HAVE encountered.....and I DO UNDERSTAND where ALL these issues may be arising from.......YOU CAN OVERCOME ANYTHING WHEN YOU SET YOUR MIND TO IT....I TRULY BELIEVE THAT with ALL MY HEART!.....(AND YOU ARE RIGHT...THOSE DAMN PILLS are EXPENSIVE!!!)

jojoluvsu2 · #23 (**permalink**) March 26th, 2008, 11:21 AM

Quote:

Originally Posted by Poncho

A reminder, this is completely off topic, I want to get info on Stacker, not debating alcohol. Please turn to another thread if you want to discuss this issue?

You initially introduced that discussion to this thread, I was just asking for your justification. You'll find most people around here are very intelligent and won't let a bold and "iffy" statement like that pass as fact without something to back it up. But agreed, let's stick to your question about the Stack

Quote:

Originally Posted by Poncho

I wanted to ask you, did you feel fine after you stopped taking the pills? How do you feel today, and how long did it take for your body to get in balance after the pills?

It was a year and a half ago (Christmas 2006) so my memory may be a bit fuzzy but I'll try to be as acurate as I can.

It took a few days for my sleeping to get back on track, same with the gitters. Stimulants don't tend to stay active for long in your system, but for a more specific answer you can look up the half life of thses drugs in pharmacy textbooks. My eating was all out of whack, and I put on all the weight I had lost. Though, it was christmas as well, so who knows if the weight would have stayed off had I just started to eat normally. After a week or so I would say I was back to 100% normal after taking the pills. Caution; I only took the pills for a total of 6 days. You won't see any appreciable results after that short of a duration, and I have no idea if there have been any studies looking at the immediate and long term effects after discontinuing use of a long duration. To make a complete guess based on the termination of other medications, like sleep medications and such, when your body artificially receives a hormone (ephedra is essentially an ephiepherine substitute), your body's natural production of that hormone decreases in order to maintain homeostasis (hense dependency). If this is true of ephedra as well, I'd say your metabolism will have slowed in an attempt to compensate for the boost, and it will be lower than when you started (read=weight gain!) Again, complete *educated* guess, but I'm not that familiar with neural hormones and their regulation. Make sense?

So, I can only tell you about my very short experience with the stack. I would NEVER do it again. Not a pleasant experience. And I cannot make any comment on long term use, and it's effects. There may be research out there though, probably worth a read if you are seriously considering this approach to weight loss.

Poncho · #24 (**permalink**) March 26th, 2008, 02:32 PM

Just a quick question. Is this site reliable? Stacker 2 Ephedra Free

Alta: thanks so much for sharing your personal experience and your support! you are being so sweet! Your story sounds really scary and I sincerely hope it won't happen to me. :O I hope you are doing better now after quitting the pills.

jojoluvs also thank you for sharing more on your personal experience!

i appreciate all replies i've received. thanks again!

as for shopping stuff on the net. how the heck should i know what website is reliable and what website isn't?

jojoluvsu2 · #25 (**permalink**) March 27th, 2008, 07:57 AM

Quote:

Originally Posted by Poncho

as for shopping stuff on the net. how the heck should i know what website is reliable and what website isn't?

Sorry, but I'm not going to go near this one. I can't remember what site I bought mine from, and I don't know enough about supplements to know what places are reliable and which aren't. Maybe look around for other forums where supplementation is common-place, and they'll be able to direct you to a good site. But there's always risk; the sites aren't selling what they say they are, not getting the product, it not being purified properly etc. Something to consider.

If you're going to do the stack, you're going to do it and there's not much we can say to stop you. From the sounds of it you've already made up your mind. But I doubt you'll find one educated person who would recommend the stack as your weight-loss program. Maybe as an aid or complement to an otherwise sensible program. It's a widely accepted fact that diet and lifestyle change is the only way that will result in permanent, lifelong changes. Please keep that in mind when you're making your decision.

Best of luck to you.

maleficent · #26 (**permalink**) March 27th, 2008, 11:31 AM

Quote:

Originally Posted by Poncho

Just a quick question. Is this site reliable? Stacker 2 Ephedra Free

eVitamins.com - HealthPricer Merchant Profile - Comparison Shopping Site - Compare Prices & Buy Online

Quote:

Originally Posted by Poncho

as for shopping stuff on the net. how the heck should i know what website is reliable and what website isn't?

Google the site and bbb for better business bureau and check to see if there are any complaints - but be aware that a lot of ecommerce sites aren't US or Canadian companies and aren't subject to the laws of the US or Canada... so check the return policy carefully and also check your credit card statement carefully for the current billing and future billing.

*Eva* · #27 (**permalink**) August 14th, 2008, 04:53 AM

Poncho - I have been taking Stackers for about a year now and have found them very helpful. I am not overweight so I don't take them regularly but if I am having a large unhealthy meal/binge or want to get rid of some bloat for a special night out/holiday then I will take them. They are really good for suppressing my appetite, they give me energy and a really good happy feeling too.

My Mum was overweight and took 3 a day (20 minutes before each meal; breakfast, lunch and dinner) and she lost 2 stone in 8 months. Obviously you can't eat like a pig!! But as the pill helps suppress your appetite anyway, it's easier to eat less, and the food you are eating is burned off quick as the tablets speed up your metabolism and body heat. She, like me only takes them occasionally now and has kept the weight off.