Kinda rude. If you're new to a group of people, you might want to check your attitude, at least until people get to know you better, doctor. No one here came to you for your advice, or asked you to peddle your site or philosophy. Discussion is great, and promotes progress. Stuff like that quote makes people dig their heels in.

--James
(Not a MD, but I've lived on planet earth)

Dr. Kim is not an MD... she's an accupuncturist... all her degrees seem to come from the same school which is the Midwest College of Oriental Medicine.

And if we're going to bring up hormones... men may have hormonal links to aggression, but women also have links to mood swings and bitchiness.

Also, 'cause I'm feeling saucy, anyone can come in and post whatever they feel like, and copy/paste a bunch of references and articles. Let's look at your first post. After having read it a few times, here was the crux of the post:

I don't see any reference to that in any of the numerous hormone related posts that you just posted. You went from arguing that restricting calories slows your metabolism to saying that its not necessarily caloric intake, but a hormonal imbalance...

Please accept my humblest and sincerest apology. It won't happen again.

As I mentioned in my unintentionally rude post (it was a poor attempt at humor, lacking the subtext of body language and facial expression to give it proper context), I was imprecise in my language. Overeating (calories) will cause one to be over weight. However, restricting calories will slow the metabolism.

The following quote was copied and pasted -- I cited the link. The references in the other post were not copied and pasted, they were referenced by hand, and typed by hand (obvious if only from the typographical errors, such as "lover" for "lower" and others).

"Although not established yet, many thyroidologists consider lowered plasma T3 production during caloric deprivation and during illness (see below) as an adaptation mechanism, since energy and protein (i.e. organ function) are being conserved . . . Since the initial description of TH effects on metabolic rate more than 100 years ago, many theories have been proposed to explain its mechanism of hormone action."
Ch. 3D

Restricting calories causes changes in thryroid hormone availability, which in turn, slows metabolism. So, yes, restricting calories can cause a hormonal change which is responsible for slowing the metabolism. I fail to see how that is inconsistent.

Thanks.

Maybe.

I'm here b/c I like being here. And yup, the free time is nice.

Good luck.

Some people are not so fortunate with flexibility in schedule. It's understood.

Very cool.

A doctor of?

That's funny that you assume this.

You are quite wrong.

Funny nonetheless though.

Yup, what's your point?

Or is this you trying to be insulting?

No need for apologies.

Wrong information is wrong information no matter how you slice it.

It's interesting to see how some people respond though when they are called on the misinformation they give. Don't ya think?

-------------------------------------

What I find even more amusing is you assumption of what I considered wrong about your post. Here are my primary qualms I have with what you said:

It does a lot more to your body biologically than this, but yes... there is a survival adaptation associated with any diet.... diet in this context meaning an energetic deficit.

How do you suppose weight comes off in the absence of an energetic deficit? Put differently, how does one lose weight when being in an energetic surplus?

Answer these questions and we'll be golden.

Haha, I don't need science to prove that wrong.

They only gain the weight back if they go back to eating the way they were eating before they lost the weight.

I'm very interested in hearing how much you believe metabolism falls while dieting?

This tied into the context of what I stated above has me very confused.

You went on to say this in your second post:

Nobody was contesting this fact. And if you think this is news to anyone here, you are underestimating the intelligence of those who post here. It's well documented here that this community not only promotes caloric control (to do otherwise is ridiculous) but also healthy options to fill said caloric goal.

So by this, are you suggesting that if I ate 500 calories from sugar per day, and that was my sole intake, my body would not oxidize fat?

Are you suggesting that people are in an energetic deficit, yet can't lose weight?

If so, can you explain the mechanisms behind this please?

Hormones can reduce metabolic rate, yes. We are well aware of this.

But that doesn't change the fact that a deficit is still a deficit.

And the largest drop in metabolism ever recorded was only 30% and this was in a controlled, prolonged starvation setting.

Got that right.

The idea of caloric control though still holds it's very firm place as the primary driver in weight loss.

It's just the more we learn about the endocrinology of it all (leptin can be a bitch), we learn new ways to help manage said caloric control.

I'd be interested in hearing your thoughts on Leptin. I'm quite surprised you didn't mention it here.

With regards to your pitiful list below, I sent it on to a friend of mine who does more research than I could ever. He is a Research Scientist, with a focus towards protein metabolism, human research with side interests in muscle metabolism, weight management and performance.

I'd love to hear your responses once you find some of your precious time. His responses to each fall right in line with what I've said above. It seems like you grossly downplay the role of thermodynamics:

How does cortisol form energy if the body in a hypocaloric state?

How does cortisol form energy if the body in a hypocaloric state?

Provide some peer reviewed evidence for existance of decent denoivo lipogenesis in the absense of raised caloric intake. Not a text book.

Once again, not a text book. Explain how carbohydrates influence fat balance in iso or hypo caloric situations?

Let me guess, the comment is relating to Cushings or similar? Now provide evidence based upon normal physiological ranges of cortisol.

Now exaplain how this creates a magical situation that creates energy when there is none.

Once again

If the body is in negative energy balance, how does insulin store excess fat? Especially understanding the concept of fat balance.

Except no mention of creating energy out of thin air.

Mainly is a word of contention, but once again, what happens with this triglyceride in the face of hypo or iso caloric situation?

Once again, what happens in the face of hypo or iso caloric situation? aka Fat balance.

Yes, absence of insulin results in the greatest fat loss state ever. Its called death.

Unless fat balance is increased by consumption of fat. Or are you trying to make the claim that fat cannot store in the face of lowered insulin. If so, may i laugh heartily now?

Which it does, unless you eat fat. becasue as we all know, in the face of incomming fatty acids (FFA and especially chylomicrons from the digestion of food lipids) stimulates the release of ASP, which increases reesterification of fatty acid in the adipocyte, decreases HSL activity, increases FAS activity, LPL and onwards.

hahahahahhahaha hahahahahhahahaha ahh hah haha ha haha

Somebody needs to step into the 1990's

Could you provide some peer reviewed evidence base for this. Totally blocked? oh dear, I know that text books love to provide unsubstantiated stuff, but that is excellent.

Well the body has to use something for energy, fatty acids to ketones, ketones for energy. Protein oxidised for energy or converted back through to glucose. Provide the body enough fatty acids(yaay food) the body doesnt have to utilize its endogenous stores of fat. Magic.

And only for the brain? What year is this 1975?

In the absence of insulin you die. Diabetes can be a bitch like that.

congrats on the Biochem 101 knowledge. What happens in the face of excess (aka hyper caloric) fat intake?

And? Of course fat oxidation raises. Fat balance, or the net flux in and out of the adipocyte may not change, because it depends on reducing uptake of fatty acid by the adipocyte and icnreasing output (and ultimately utilization of said fatty acid).

But of course insulin causes fat storage and nothing else. Ask yourself this, what effect does fasting levels of insulin have on fat metabolism, or the slightly raised level of insulin achieved by consuming a diet with higher levels of protein that is typical of the low cabrohydrate diet.

Lady.

In the chance where I need clarification on a concept, I have full faith in the contacts I have. You sure as shit would never be one of them, no offense.

This list of "references" has done nothing to support your claim except prove that you can read and copy words from a text.

My god.

Nobody is contesting the notion that a caloric deficit slows metabolism!

How do you propose one loses weight without a caloric deficit though?

Hey Steve,

Feel better?

I can't believe you gave her the time of day like that. It's obvious what she is here for and caloric intake is the most beneficial method as SEVERAL of us have proved. I am so glad she thinks I am going to gain my weight instantly back... because I haven't learned a damn thing after a year of eating. I need this lady to come in and reteach me, these 80lbs I've lost aren't enough of a motivator... she needs to show me the way...

I knew you'd eventually get to see this and have a "roid rage"...

-Keith

Entirely tangential to the OP, but vaguely related to the current tangent, here's a guy who spent a month eating an average of 3,800 calories a day of virtually nothing but cream, egg yolks, butter and meat, while doing no exercise. By his calculations, he should have gained 13 or 14 pounds, and he actually gained nothing. Keeping Track of jeff's MAM Experiment (With additional commentary starting about halfway down the page here: Foods and Fat Deposition : Paleolithic & Neanderthin Forum : Active Low-Carber Forums.)

Of course, on the Internet, nobody knows you're a dog. And the plural of anecdote isn't data. But I thought it was interesting, in sort of a train-wreck-gawking way.

Thanks for speaking up.

I've got a large clientèle that can attest to the same thing.

I know you are joking Keith, but I'd like to add....

Definitely not raging. Though people around here love to add 'tone' to posts, I'm nothing but calm. My writing style may come across as rage, but I can assure you that couldn't be further from the truth.

I don't have the time to check that page out at the moment, but I can say I've encountered people who are a few standard deviations away from the norm. In fact, I was just communicating with and viewing a gentleman's from another forum food log. He's been losing weight eating 4000 calories.

These few are genetically blessed. It doesn't say anything about the reality of thermodynamics though.

For instance, some people can experience a high level of something known as NEAT that drastically bumps up caloric expenditure per day. Check this out:

http://endocrinefellows.org/new_medi...2004/index.htm

Neat = non exercise activity thermogenesis

That's the beauty of it... I can actually tell you're a guy just sitting there as calm as can be... People can either take what you write in the context they want to or they can realize it is what it is. Most times its taken out of context because people themselves aren't here because they are open minded but because they have their own agenda anyways.

I never thought once you were mad or smug, just that you know from PERSONAL experience (I mean it's only your job and people are obviously coming to you in droves) what is correct information and what isn't. It's also VERY obvious that you will research something when you don't know it.

I appreciate the kind words man, really.