You're fine. And you know, just for that I think I'm going to go edit some wikipedia entries. That's simply false information.

Michael

This is the second time this has come up in the past couple of days. I have asked before, and was ignored, so I'll try again in this thread (since it seems active). Does anyone have any research / anything solid beyond anecdotal evidence for 1g/lb of lean bodymass? I have lots of meathead friends that drink those damn whey protein shakes like it is their job, but I think they taste like horse snot. And while I have the money to buy the 10 chickens and two cows a day that this would seem to require, if one of the good folks on here could give me something real, I would throw extra sacrifice on the fires for you to my heathen gods.

I don't eat anywhere NEAR what i'm supposed to eat by that calculation (my estimation: 1/3 of that). I'm a pretty large-muscled fella, and it seems to me that I would be having some serious problems if I have a protein intake that was that insufficient.

If I WASN'T getting enough protein, what would my symptoms be? If I WAS getting the perfect amount (I.E. matched perfectly to whatever the limiting reagent in this equation is), how would I know it versus an imperfect amount?

Reevaluation of the protein requirement in young men with the
indicator amino acid oxidation technique.ABSTRACT
Background: The current estimated protein requirements are based
on the nitrogen balance method, which has many limitations. An
alternate approach is needed to permit a reevaluation of protein
requirements.
Objective: The objective was to determine protein requirements in
men by using the indicator amino acid oxidation technique.
Design: Eight healthy men randomly received graded protein intakes
(0.10, 0.30, 0.60, 0.90, 1.2, 1.5 and 1.8 g
kg
1
d
1) as a
crystalline amino acid mixture along with L-[1-13C]phenylalanine.
The mean protein requirement was determined by applying a biphase
linear regression crossover analysis on F13CO2 data, which identified
a breakpoint at the minimal rate of appearance of 13CO2 to
graded protein intakes.
Results: The mean and population-safe (recommended dietary
allowance; RDA) protein requirements were found to be 0.93 and
1.2 g
kg
1
d
1, respectively. These requirements are comparable
with those estimated by the application of a biphase linear regression
model to the data from nitrogen balance studies (0.91 and
1.0 g
kg
1
d
1, respectively). These requirements are 41% and
50% higher than the current recommendations for the estimated
average requirement (EAR) of 0.66 g
kg
1
d
1 and the RDA of
0.80 g
kg
1
d
1, as determined by applying a linear regression
model where it intersects the zero balance line.
Conclusion: The indicator amino acid oxidation technique defined
a protein requirement that is comparable with that estimated by the
application of a biphase linear regression model to nitrogen balance
data in the literature. Our data and the reanalysis of the preexisting
nitrogen balance data suggest that the current recommended protein
requirements are too low and require reassessment. Am J Clin
Nutr 2007;86:995–1002.


In the discussion:

The current EAR recommendation and RDA for protein are
0.66 and 0.80 g
kg
1
d
1, respectively. We believe that these
recommendations are tentative because no long-term studies
have suggested that these values would maintain nitrogen balance
along with lean body mass, muscle mass, serum protein
concentrations, immunity, functional capacity etc. Previously, a
series of long-term balance studies (67– 69) showed that intake of
the proposed safe allowance of 0.57 g (70) egg protein resulted in
negative nitrogen balance, loss of lean body mass, and deteriorating
serum protein and transferase values unless additional
energy or nonessential nitrogen was supplied.

Again, you don't need it, but it certainly doesn't hurt. This is particularly true if you workout.

Michael

yeah, man. You copy/pasted that before. Is there a link to that study or the math behind it? Like I said in the other discussion, the math seems really screwy in that post. Why would they change their regression model, and say that based on the old data their regression model is better too?

Regression models are an old concept. You'd think that in something as important as this that different fits would have been tried, and if a different one was more appropriate based on their data, they would have changed their findings...

I'm going to make a website soon just so I can host the research studies I have. The reason why I quote the study is because it is quality...if you read it you'll probably agree.

Let me put it up in the next day or two and I'll link you to it.

As for now: here is a little write up from pretty much the most anti-protein exercise physiology book I've ever read: (paraphrased heavily)

"High protein diets"

The normal recommended dietary allowance of .8 g/kg of body weight translates to 60 g of protein for a 170 lb guy. However since exercise increases protein catabolism (destruction) many athletes have turned to high protein diets. The increased protein breakdown during intense exercise is more a reflection of gluconeogenesis for the purpose of maintaining blood sugar levels (aka turning it into sugar for the body) instead of protein catabolism for providing energy to support muscular contraction. Table 12.4 is a suggested protein intake for male athletes:

Sedentary: .8 g /kg
Endurance: 1.4g/kg
Strength: 1.8g/kg

Typically this is a protein intake brought about by the average American diet. However an individual on a calorie reduced eating plan who is active in strength/endurance activities may find it helpful to shift a proportion of their calories to protein to maintain athletic competency.

_________________________________________
The only things I added were in brackets. Eitherway, this would mean 200 g of protein for a 250 lb guy. If you are on a 2200 calorie a day diet, 200 g of protein is 800 calories, or 36% of your total intake. It can approach 40% without worries.

Michael

I have read what you posted now over 6 times (both last time and this time), and have seen problems with their conclusion (arguing that "accepted" math is flawed because if it is wrong, your conclusion fits is piss poor science). I can bring up MS Paint and draw you some examples of what I'm talking about, if you want.



As far as the most recent post, all that copy/paste did was to rephrase part of what you already said, but with less math, and less proof. Again, I have HEARD from some people that since I'm in some serious training that I should be eating pretty much my own leg's worth of protein every day. Does anyone have anything SOLID and PUBLISHED? I've searched, and can't find anything, but then again, I'm not as practiced at it as others here are.

Pig, as I said to you before, the science is on the fence. Personally, I choose to err on the side of high than low.... high being roughly 1 gram per lb of my bodyweight. If you're carrying a lot of body fat, knock this intake down to 1 gram per lb of LBM.

That's based on empirical evidence over the years with my own training and nutrition as well as client's.

Not to mention, most of the top coaches in the world have concluded the same thing..... I hate to appeal to authority, but when science doesn't answer our questions, what else do we have to turn to besides empirical evidence?

Lyle McDonald is coming out with a book extremely soon that will answer this question using the available research.... I'm very excited to get my hands on this book. I know though that after delving through all the available research he sides with Tipton who he thought made the most compelling argument in his 2004 review paper which was "It's better for elite performers to err on the side of slightly too much protein than too little (1.2-1.5 g/lb for strength/power and 1 g/lb for enduros). Any benefits may be too small to detect in short term studies but are clearly relevant at that level. Unless other nutrient intake is shorted, there's no harm to consuming more and there may be small but relevant benefits."

Protein requirements are odd. There is research out there showing how exercise increases protein requirements, while there's also stuff out there that it has been shown to decrease protein requirements under certain circumstances, as consistent training improves protein utilization.

My recommendation... toy around until you find the best results. But with all in mind, I believe the blanket recommendation of 1 gram per pound of LBM is best, which you can take for what it's worth.

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This is really what I was looking for. In all the crap that I've been reading over the past few days, I have read a LOT about what people think that it should be, and their reasoning for it. Not a single one of the studdies delved into the differences between a "sufficient" amount of protein and an "optimum" amount of protein. I believe that I'm getting a "sufficient" amount of protein with what I'm eating now. I just want to know what benefit I'm going to get by eating enough chicken in one day to feed Uganda for a year. If I'm going to see noticeable results, then they can continue to fend for themselves, and I'm going to fowl my mouth like crazy. I just want to know the specifics.

As calories go up, protein requirements go down in general.

However, when dieting.... they certainly go up. Your body will always turn to an excess pool of aminos in the bloodstream before actual muscle, itself. Inadequate protein consumption during a diet can certainly lead to excess muscle loss.

That's also something to consider.

This, and you'd be hard pressed to find an elite level coach not promoting an intake of protein similar to the one I highlighted above.... even though science goes both ways.

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I just bought a barrel of the horse-snot (vanilla whey protein), and stole a truckload of chicken intended for the canadian armed forces. We'll see how it goes...

Awesome gas incomming... At least my dog will still appreciate it / give me high fives

Hey folks,
Have been seeing some articles lately and even tv programs regarding too much protein causing kidney problems and even kidney disease in some cases. Some of the people affected had prior kidney problems, but at least a 1/3 of them did not. It also did not say how many grams of protein these affected people were comsuming per week. I am presently comsuming approx. 200-225 grams/day, weighing 187 lbs, 5'9", attempting to hit 200 lbs. I am not presently taking any other supplements, other than the Whey protein. Any comments would be appreciated. Thnks.

You're fine.

And please remove the links in your sig.

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