I think supply and demand should decide wages. If anyone can do it and the job isn't hard or strenuous, the supply of workers who can do it will be high. The corresponding wage should be low.

So if you work in a coal mine and make $100k a year, that's fine. But if you want more money and the boss won't give it to you, you should not have the ability to prevent him from hiring a replacement.

I was reading on Bloomburg about the Union demands for Ford. Ford...which lost 12.5 billion dollars. Their demands are ridiculous. They want job security when they are shutting down 16 of 41 plants in North America. Are they retarded?

Here in Edmonton machine operators went on strike to demand more than the market could pay and they received a 7 year wage plan that adjusted their wage from $16-$24 with it ending at $19-$27.50 at the end of the term in 2010. That was when non-union operators were making $12/hour.

However, due to our booming economy, non-union operators now make $34/hour. Think the Union says "oh we received a wage that was out of the ordinary back in 2003, we can still live comfortably, let's leave it be?". As if. They wanted their contracts renegotiated to "keep pace with market demand."

They were singing a different tune 5 years ago. When the economy stinks they don't care one bit about market conditions. Luckily the companies told them to go screw themselves and that if they wanted a higher wage they had to drop their unions and come back as private employees. I love union busting.

Michael

Common sense has nothing to do with performing a general laborers job. People working on a production line are not trouble shooting, they aren't thinking on their feet and they sure as hell are not responsible for other people.

You can't seem to comprehend the term "Unskilled laborer". I can see why, since you can't seem to spell the word Construction correctly. Unskilled labor takes little educational background and almost anyone off of the street could perform the task at hand.

I am all for people seeking employment, even people that didn't go to college. But theres is absolutely no reason why a teacher, who went to school for at least 4 years, gets paid less then someone working on a production line. The only entity that keeps these workers salaries at this artificially inflated level is the union.

Its amazing that these "bleeding heart" patriots that are pro-union fail to realize that unions are basically the closest thing to communism as you can get.

1. Everyone is equally paid.
2. No incentive to work harder, the bulk of incentives are driven by seniority.
3. The union focuses on the common good of a group of people instead of addressing each issue on a person by person basis.

I'll say it again, if you have never personally experienced working in a union shop then you have no comprehension of the issues involved.

LoL I know how to spell construction.... for some reason I'm finding it difficult to type on this lap top....

And I am a "bleeding heart" As a child when my mother would give me a handful of pennies to ride the electric horse at the grocery... ( I'm old back then it was only a penny) When other children would stand and stare I would get down off the horse and give them the rest of MY pennies! lol

I'm getting bored with this topic.... It is what it is... There are nice people in the world and mean people... and this nice person is going to get off of her fat 120 pound rear and do some Gilad!! I almost forgot this is a fitness community.
Have a good one!

I'm mean because I am a realist? Sorry, you didn't attempt to do anything with your life and you barely got through high school. Heres a cushy union job, does $30 an hour sound nice? No, not enough? Sorry, how about $40 with full benefits? I know its not a lot but we're nice guys so take as much money as you need.

If nice means that we need to reward people who have no ambition in life then consider me mean. But of course, the most ambitious, hard working people in this country are trash collectors, road workers and mail collectors.

Im a mail collector. Is there something wrong with that?

Not at all but would you consider yourself a "skilled laborer"? Also, do you think that the non-specialized job that you do is worth more than say a teacher or any other job that requires a college diploma?

You're not mean because you're a "realist" You're mean because you are insulting people.
I can tell you that your attitude is horrible. You say that anyone can do Union jobs? I can tell you that it would be much easier to get a degree than to be a coal miner. Many union jobs have a great deal of risk to health and safety.... They are not at all like flipping burgers.
You know what?? Somebody has to do manual labor. How would this country survive if no one wanted to build roads? pick up the trash? build schools? make gasoline and asphalt? Well????
There is no shame in physical labor. It is just as important as owning the company. They also deserve to be paid well.

Here's to the Hardworking people of America!

Ya know what kid? I wish you all the luck you deserve ....in whatever ventures you have going on. I hope that you can own your very own 4 bedroom house someday and do it earning money that you deserve because you are so ambitious. I hope that your children give you all the love and respect that you deserve as well.
In fact... print out this thread and look back on it when you're in your 40's.....It might be really interesting to you!

lol..let me guess... You are going to be a teacher? I would say that a mail carrier works at least as hard as a teacher

And as a mother of 2 school aged children.... let me tell you that it is just as easy to be a slacker teacher as a slacker auto worker. I've seen countless teachers just going through the motions between trips to the teacher's lounge for another piece of cake.
It's not really about the job. It's about the person.

You're like a bad Fox News talking head. Its funny that you would go out of your way to call these jobs manual labor but then act as if there is some kind of pride in doing it. Its a job, and the market determines what a worker is paid. If someone in China is making $2 a day, then its amazing that these bleeding hearts in the US seem to think that they're worth $30 an hour.

Burger Flippers can't survive on $7 an hour. Should they unionize, hold out for $20 an hour + benefits and force all of the prices to go up? Or should they just come to realization that they didn't put anything into life and just settled for a shitty bottom of the barrel job. A job that they shouldn't be getting paid top dollar to do.

Its amazing that most right wingers are pro-union, yet they fail to see the hypocrisy in the system. Why can't it be dog-eat-dog? Why does everyone need to be entitled to a cushy job that allows them to be in the upper middle class of this country?

If you're not going to get an education to further yourself, just join a union, hold a company hostage and feel entitled to continuous wages. The true American dream.

You guessed wrong, I am in the process of becoming a Russian translator. I want to join the Navy. Regardless, you bring up another bad point. Tenure and teachers unions bring on more of this mentality. A teacher works a certain amount of time and they're "In". How does this business structure benefit anyone? The employees feel safe with doing the bare minimum because their job is secure and they get annual wages increases for just showing up.

If I am running or even working for a company, I would like to have competition between employees. If you work harder then the rest, you get raises and compensation. If you slack, or just do the bare minimum, then the company lets you go in favor of someone that gets the job done.

I guess some people are happy going through life just being average and doing the bare minimum to scrape by. I am not one of them.

That is where we disagree... Of course I act like there is some sort of pride in doing these jobs... you mean to tell me that you don't think these people should be proud of a job well done??

Seriously.. go ahead... tell everyone who is reading this... you don't think road builders, home builders, steel workers, oil workers, Mail carriers, coal miners..... should take pride in their work????!!!

And you know what?? people get fired all the time from union jobs. my daughter's 4th grade teacher was fired. she was not a good teacher. I know a guy who was union and he was let go for running a company car into a pole on the job site... so you don't even know what you are talking about.

Once again... print this out and read it when you're 40 something....

I'm really surpised that I encountered someone as ambitious and wonderful as yourself while waiting for my laundry to dry... lol

Skilled labour vs. unskilled labour. There is no merit in the argument that a job that requires a college education should get paid more than one that doesn't. Market forces should determine it.

Simply because some skilled labour jobs, once you know the skill, are extremely easy and offer numerous benefits. This will lure many people to the job and increase the supply. Thus the average wage should go down.

Many unskilled labour jobs require you to risk your life and live away from home 75% of the year. Although not requiring anything but on the job training, these jobs will often not be well-supplied. The wage should go up.

Supply and demand arguments involving citizens of another country are moot. No country is going to have porous borders just to level out a labour supply. Supply and demand of labour is by and large settled within a country's borders in which a company incorporates.

Michael

What is your defintion of skill? But dont stereotype the people that work there. There are many people who are college educated, yet enjoy the satisfaction they receive in this job. If people like what they do, then why should be criticized? Who said I make more then a teacher? Teachers in my area make more than I. I think teachers should make much more then I make, much more then almost any other profession actually.

See my first quote. There are many people who enjoy their manual labor jobs. They interact with a large amount of people per day, or work outdoors. If China workers could form a union, then maybe they could receive a decent wage. Again the last comment is a statement from a narrow minded person.

So you're going to go into a career where you sign up for a certain amount of years and have a guarenteed job for that time? Sounds like a union or teacher tenure to me. Your idea of bare minimum is different then someone elses. Your values are different then others.

To answer the OP: No, I would not cross a picket line.

As for education (in response to "that one guy") I imagine I have more than you do, since I have an MBA from Vanderbilt University. I imagine I also have a bit more experience in life than you do, too.

I find it interesting that someone like you can blame the demise of the American automobile industry on unions. I guess when the first Japanese small cars appeared in America you weren't born yet. If you were, let me refresh your memory: the executives of the American automobile industry ignored these cars. They assumed that they were the same junky imports that Japan was famous for in the 50's. They didn't do their homework, they were ignorant of the quality movement that had revolutionized Japanese manufacturing, and as a result, they lost their market.

Today they are doing exactly the same thing -- they let the Japanese manufacturers corner the hybrid market. They are years behind, and paying the price.

Since my wife is a public school teacher, let me assure you that the education of children would be quite a bit worse without teacher unions. It takes an incredible amount of education to qualify for the crappy starting salaries teachers get once they are credentialed. In exchange, they get what is mistakenly called "tenure." In reality, tenure is no different than passing a probationary period in regular industry. It just means you can't be fired on a whim.

I also find it interesting how many people who profess to be in favor of capitalism support notions that would destroy capitalism itself. For example, a lot of "pro-business" people are against price-fixing regulation. Yet without that sort of regulation, capitalism would implode.

The ability of workers to organize in defense of their own rights and economic welfare is a similar part of the checks and balances of a healthy capitalist system. That doesn't mean that unions should always get their way, any more than owners should always win. But the tension between the two is what helps preserve a middle class, and a strong middle class is a bulwark of democracy.

He's not the only one saying it. Have you ever seen a comparison of the wages and benefits package of a company such as Toyota vs. GM? It doesn't look that bad until you consider retirement. It's pretty insane. GM is losing money left and right while Toyota is making a profit. GM's workforce is sucking up so much money that they are paying out more money than they're taking in, then they strike because they want GM to guarantee that they will keep the plants in America. Why the hell would GM want to do that with this situation? It's one thing to be pro-American... as long as you don't go bankrupt in the process.

For those of you who haven't worked directly in a union shop... you don't know what the hell you are talking about. Seriously. A liberal reading the liberal based media thinks it sounds great but in real life alot of it is a crock of shit. I like the idea actually, but unfortunately reality isn't quite so peachy keen, which is what alot of people don't realize.