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April 16th, 2007, 11:32 AM
|  | Member | | Join Date: Jul 2006 Location: Deos Fortioribus Adesse
Posts: 17,024
Rep Power: 182 | | Haha, didn't mean to scare ya STAR!!!!!
I would recommend you tone down the weight training to a handful of workouts per week, as in 2-3.
Everything else sounds good.
If you have more questions, bring it over to my journal. I would be interested to see exactly what you are doing in terms of lifting weights. |
April 16th, 2007, 09:08 PM
| | Junior Member | | Join Date: Apr 2007 Location: Toronto
Posts: 133
Rep Power: 9 | | Quote:
Originally Posted by lilone  This is what I have grasped so far, let me know I’m on the right track:
- metabolism is the process of converting the food we eat into energy our body needs
- by creating a deficit instead of our bodies converting this food, it burns up fat to supply energy...
- but then it's also a balancing act b/c to lose fat you have to reduce your caloric intake, but then Steve I was reading another one of your posts about how your trying to get 4000cal to build muscle mass. so what if I just want to tone my muscles... and lose the flab around them... which leads me to more questions: | Just to add to what Steve said about " tone " and my thoughts on it's relevance in weight training within the context of describing the look you want for your muscles.
There is a difference ( or shall I say ' distinction ' ) I think should be made between some of the terminology used to describe " building muscle " mass and " toning " your muscles.The term " tone " is thrown around a lot and seems to mean different things to different people. Exercise with weights can build muscle mass and or " tone " your muscles. What does it mean to " tone " your muscles ? Muscle " tone " has to do with how contracted your muscle stays when you relax. When you're out of shape, you have poor tone and your level of contraction when at rest is low...your abs and arms and legs look "mushy" even if they're thin. When you're in shape, you have good tone and your level of contraction when at rest is high. You can be toned without having to add a lot of muscle mass. And don't confuse looking " toned " with looking " lean " ( i.e lean as in where you muscles are very obvious) which is a matter of losing body fat. For example, having a 6-pack of abs is all about losing fat ( and toning ab muscles ) - not muscle mass.
This is why getting your body fat down is a key part of getting a " toned " muscle. Remember fat is not only just under you're skin but ( if you have a lot it ) it's riddled throughout your muscles like the ' marbling ' or fat you see in a steak. If you want your muscles to to ' taut ' and ' toned ' and you want nothing but muscle,you have to get rid of the ' marbling ' by burning the fat IN YOUR MUSCLES as well as the fat on top of your muscles ...and usually the best way to do this is via weight training , a good diet and some form of cardio. Quote:
Originally Posted by lilone - so if you have a cal. deficit and do cardio you can lose fat but also breaking down muscle, "since muscle is metabolically expensive" (i don’t really understand what that means, but i have the general idea) but if you did some weight training or resistance training (what’s the difference if there is a difference) you won't be gaining muscle because you need a cal. surplus? and if that is so then if you do weight lifting with a deficit what will be happening to your muscles? | Muscle loss from dieting usually occurs when the calorie deficit is significant enough such that your body thinks it's approaching some form of starvation period. In response, your body makes it a priority to actually conserve more fat and instead of burning fat for energy as it normally would, it turns to other sources of energy....namely, amino acids ( usually reserved for lean tissue synthesis - i.e building / maintaining muscle ) which are now being converted to energy.
Muscle loss from prolonged cardio over days/weeks can also occur in situations where glycogen stores are not replentished enough over time to meet training demands and - as in the other example - your body turns to cannibalizing muscle protein for use as energy. This is why you see some long distance runners who train with longer cardio sessions over time having very little muscle on their upper bodies, sporting that " emaciated " look.   |
April 17th, 2007, 03:52 AM
| | Newb | | Join Date: Apr 2007 Location: Ontario, Canada
Posts: 59
Rep Power: 0 | | | Thank you for all your replies. |
April 17th, 2007, 05:21 AM
| | Member | | Join Date: Jul 2006 Location: Deos Fortioribus Adesse
Posts: 17,024
Rep Power: 182 | | Quote:
Originally Posted by Wrangell Just to add to what Steve said about " tone " and my thoughts on it's relevance in weight training within the context of describing the look you want for your muscles.
There is a difference ( or shall I say ' distinction ' ) I think should be made between some of the terminology used to describe " building muscle " mass and " toning " your muscles.The term " tone " is thrown around a lot and seems to mean different things to different people. Exercise with weights can build muscle mass and or " tone " your muscles. What does it mean to " tone " your muscles ? Muscle " tone " has to do with how contracted your muscle stays when you relax. When you're out of shape, you have poor tone and your level of contraction when at rest is low...your abs and arms and legs look "mushy" even if they're thin. When you're in shape, you have good tone and your level of contraction when at rest is high. You can be toned without having to add a lot of muscle mass. And don't confuse looking " toned " with looking " lean " ( i.e lean as in where you muscles are very obvious) which is a matter of losing body fat. For example, having a 6-pack of abs is all about losing fat ( and toning ab muscles ) - not muscle mass.
This is why getting your body fat down is a key part of getting a " toned " muscle. Remember fat is not only just under you're skin but ( if you have a lot it ) it's riddled throughout your muscles like the ' marbling ' or fat you see in a steak. If you want your muscles to to ' taut ' and ' toned ' and you want nothing but muscle,you have to get rid of the ' marbling ' by burning the fat IN YOUR MUSCLES as well as the fat on top of your muscles ...and usually the best way to do this is via weight training , a good diet and some form of cardio. | Interesting concept, I have never heard it put in such words. Rather than spouting off (not that this is what you were doing) about how you CAN in reality tone a muscle, I opt not to go that route. People don't understand this and almost always run with the magic "toning routine" of high reps, high volume training.
I mean, we can start discussing myogenic and neurogenic tone of a muscle all we want, but I don't think it will do much good in the case of the average person looking to lose body fat.
Just my 2 cents. |
April 17th, 2007, 07:24 AM
| | Junior Member | | Join Date: Apr 2007 Location: Toronto
Posts: 133
Rep Power: 9 | | Quote:
Originally Posted by Steve Interesting concept, I have never heard it put in such words. Rather than spouting off (not that this is what you were doing) about how you CAN in reality tone a muscle, I opt not to go that route. People don't understand this and almost always run with the magic "toning routine" of high reps, high volume training. | I agree, people confuse what terms they should to use to describe their goals are when training- whether it's to describe the goal of improving muscle endurance, muscle mass, muscle strength, level of bodyfat, VO2 , lactate threshold etc. etc. That's why I wanted to put the term " tone " in it's proper context.
I simply wanted to provide lilone some context to what it means when people correctly say a mucle is " toned " - from an overall exercise/fitness context. And, that " tone " is a valid term within a fitness context...but it may not mean what lilone thinks it means. As I mentioned earlier, " tone " begins with the degree to which your muscles remain contracted or tensed while at rest - i.e or even when you're sleeping. People who are not fit ( i.e really out of shape ) tend to have pretty poor muscle tone/low contraction at rest whereas very fit people have good muscle tone/high contraction. So, you can say, one of the benefits of exercise is improved " muscle tone ".
And I agree with you, ......the " highs rep lead to defintion " or " the high reps leads to ' toning ' " are clearly myths...one's I can't belive many people still seem to cling to. The fact is, if you do hi reps with low resistance or low reps with greater resistance, you're going to see the same improvements in " muscle tone ". |
April 17th, 2007, 07:48 AM
| | Member | | Join Date: Jul 2006 Location: Deos Fortioribus Adesse
Posts: 17,024
Rep Power: 182 | | | Wrangell-
I did understand what you were doing. You were giving the technical side of things. Which is great, IMO.
If you put 100 people in a room, randomly selected from the general public, I bet you 99, it not 100 of them would assume toning means light weight, high rep training to become lean.
I just don't see a need to bring up the technical version of muscle tone with the average person. I think it better suits him/her to explain that toning, in the context of their understanding, is not possible.
Kind of like when I go to get my taxes done. The last thing I want from them is a technical evaluation of how the CPA saved me X amount of dollars. I just want to know he used his expertise to create a savings.
Honestly, I am not arguing here. Just conversing. I take it you are a trainer, no? |
April 17th, 2007, 08:54 AM
| | Junior Member | | Join Date: Apr 2007 Location: Toronto
Posts: 133
Rep Power: 9 | | Quote:
Originally Posted by Steve Wrangell-
I did understand what you were doing. You were giving the technical side of things. Which is great, IMO.
If you put 100 people in a room, randomly selected from the general public, I bet you 99, it not 100 of them would assume toning means light weight, high rep training to become lean.
I just don't see a need to bring up the technical version of muscle tone with the average person. I think it better suits him/her to explain that toning, in the context of their understanding, is not possible. | I hear you. You make a good point.
Thing is, on a couple of other forums I post on, I had questions from newbies about what " toning " actually means before, so I simply saw your comments and put in my 2 cents - sorry, force of habit  . So when they ask, " How do I tone my muscles ? " - you have to get to the very point you touched on making in making a reply. You don't train or design an exercise program for " toning " per say - that is a myth. But, you do design training you do to optimize fat loss, or muscle mass, or mucle strength, or muscle spped, endurance...thing is, the improved " toning " of your muscles is simply a side-benefit or consquence of the training related to those goals above. Quote:
Originally Posted by Steve Kind of like when I go to get my taxes done. The last thing I want from them is a technical evaluation of how the CPA saved me X amount of dollars. I just want to know he used his expertise to create a savings.
Honestly, I am not arguing here. Just conversing. I take it you are a trainer, no? | No worries.
I'm a newb on this forum, so I guess I'll have to try get a better feel if my replies are going too far off tangent..be sure and let me know if i do
Trainer ? No way...not even close. I've just spent WAY too much time in the gym and rerading is all .
Started serious training for hockey - I'm in Canada eh - in high school / college ( business degrees ), then with coaching teams and training hockey players. Since then, I've spent over 25 years in the gym and simply got sick and tired being told by " experts " of all the mistakes I was making ( which I was ) and getting conflicting advise from so-called " expert " trainers. So, I simply started to read everything I could on training on my own ( up to about 150 books in my library so far ) to understand the proper " how-to's " & why some things work and some don't.
And all I've really learned is, after all that reading, I don't know as much as I think I do. And I've still got a heck of a lot more to learn. That's why I joined this forum. |
April 17th, 2007, 09:02 AM
| | Member | | Join Date: Jul 2006 Location: Deos Fortioribus Adesse
Posts: 17,024
Rep Power: 182 | | With that reply, my friend, I hope you stick around for a long time!
You are free to makes posts about whatever you want. That is the point of the forum, and when someone picks my interest enough, I will almost always reply... with no bad intentions. I was simply explaining my thoughts of in-depth physiological descriptions to the average person looking to lose fat. Ya know? If your opinion conflicts with mine, that is fine and dandy. I just like conversing about this stuff.
And I am always more then willing to agree to disagree, not that we are in this particular instance.
And I am right there with you. The more I learn, the more I realize how much I DON'T know. That is the beauty of the subject at hand. It is a never-ending field with endless amounts of information.
You know your stuff, and I hope you continue to post here. A lot of people would love for you to share your knowledge around here. |
April 17th, 2007, 11:07 AM
| | Newb | | Join Date: Apr 2007 Location: Ontario, Canada
Posts: 59
Rep Power: 0 | | Sorry to be a hindrance but since you mention it: Quote: |
And I agree with you, ......the " highs rep lead to definition " or " the high reps leads to ' toning ' " are clearly myths...one's I can't believe many people still seem to cling to. The fact is, if you do hi reps with low resistance or low reps with greater resistance, you're going to see the same improvements in “muscle tone ".
| If I want to 'tone' my muscles; And, when I say tone I mean it in the context of which you spoke of: Quote: |
tone " begins with the degree to which your muscles remain contracted or tensed while at rest - i.e or even when you're sleeping. People who are not fit ( i.e really out of shape ) tend to have pretty poor muscle tone/low contraction at rest whereas very fit people have good muscle tone/high contraction.
| Then I should be doing cardio to reduce the fat, but also weight training won't hurt, right? so with that in mind going back to this talk about reps...if I use 5lb. weights how many reps should I be doing? |
April 17th, 2007, 11:11 AM
| | Member | | Join Date: Jul 2006 Location: Deos Fortioribus Adesse
Posts: 17,024
Rep Power: 182 | | Yes, the toning you speak of comes from a reduction in body fat.
The way to decrease body fat is through a synergistic push using proper nutrition, weight training, and cardio.
You ask how many reps you should do using a 5 lb db. Weight lifted dictates rep range. So the heavier of a weight you lift, relative to your strength, the fewer reps you will be able to do, and vice versa.
While dieting, you must be in a caloric deficit. I suggest you find a recent post made be TomO titled, "words of wisdom." I think that is what it was called. I also suggest reading a post I made regarding setting up a resistance training routine for the beginner looking to lose weight. It is found in the "weightloss through exercise" section of the site. The thread is titled "workou" and it is stickied.
5lb weights probably aren't going to do much for you. |
April 17th, 2007, 11:32 AM
| | Member | | Join Date: Jan 2007
Posts: 835
Rep Power: 16 | | Quote:
Originally Posted by Wrangell Muscle " tone " has to do with how contracted your muscle stays when you relax. When you're out of shape, you have poor tone and your level of contraction when at rest is low...your abs and arms and legs look "mushy" even if they're thin. When you're in shape, you have good tone and your level of contraction when at rest is high. | Wrangell, without knowing it - cause I never asked - you have just exactly explained something I have been confused about in observing my own body's development over the last few months. The big joke these days among my friends and co-workers is to accuse me of "always walking around flexing"...and even to me it basically does look like I'm purposely trying to "contract my muscles" even when I'm just sitting there - I just couldn't figure out what the deal was but that makes so much sense. Thank you. |
April 17th, 2007, 12:23 PM
| | Junior Member | | Join Date: Apr 2007 Location: Toronto
Posts: 133
Rep Power: 9 | | Quote:
Originally Posted by cym Wrangell, without knowing it - cause I never asked - you have just exactly explained something I have been confused about in observing my own body's development over the last few months. The big joke these days among my friends and co-workers is to accuse me of "always walking around flexing"...and even to me it basically does look like I'm purposely trying to "contract my muscles" even when I'm just sitting there - I just couldn't figure out what the deal was but that makes so much sense. Thank you. | No need to thank me.
If your muscles are taut & shapely enough so that " friends and co-workers " can't help but take notice.......congrats go to you........pat yourself on the back. |
April 17th, 2007, 07:39 PM
| | Junior Member | | Join Date: Apr 2007 Location: Toronto
Posts: 133
Rep Power: 9 | | Quote:
Originally Posted by lilone Sorry to be a hindrance but since you mention it:
If I want to 'tone' my muscles; And, when I say tone I mean it in the context of which you spoke of:
Then I should be doing cardio to reduce the fat, but also weight training won't hurt, right? so with that in mind going back to this talk about reps.. .if I use 5lb. weights how many reps should I be doing? | Actually, the question should be the other way around IMO...." If I want to lift for an " opitmal " number of reps, how heavy a weight should I lift ? "
As I see it, basically you want to change the " shape " of your muscles. In other words, you want change how your muscles look. Men want the same thing. So, the way you train should be very similar to the way men train. I had the text ( below ) bookmarked from another forum that discusses reps in the context of getting " shape " in muscles. It does a much better job of explaining how you can apply generic training principles to change the shape and " tone " of your muscles with some highlighted text areas for your attention....... Quote: " Many women are afraid of strength training because they believe that it will create large muscles that are unattractive. "I’ll weight train once I get this fat off. I don’t want to turn it into muscle". This is a prevalent misconception. The vast majority of women cannot build large muscles because they are genetically incapable of doing so. It is impossible to turn fat into muscle, or muscle into fat, as each cell is unique from the other.
"the physiology of strength training" In order to dispel these types of myths, we need to understand the physiology of strength training. Strength training results in an increase in muscle fiber size. As the muscle fibers increase in thickness, the shape of the muscle changes, getting thicker in the belly, or middle, of the muscle. This results in a change in the shape of the muscle. How much the muscle changes in shape, and how large the muscle gets, depends on the amount of work the muscle is asked to do (as well as other factors discussed later). If the muscle is asked to lift very heavy loads, it will respond with a significant increase in fiber/muscle size. (The goal of most men.)
In order to avoid this gain in muscle mass, women are told to lift very light weights. This recommendation is oftentimes interpreted to the extreme, and women perform many repetitions with 3 or 5 pound weights. Unfortunately, without sufficient load (weight), the muscle will not change, and the goal of "tone" and "shape" cannot be achieved. A change in the shape or tone of a muscle is created in the same way that size is created, with hard work and consistency!! In order to shape or tone your muscle, you must lift a weight that is heavy enough to create muscle fatigue (also known as failure). Working your muscles to fatigue means that your muscles refuse to lift/move the weight in a correct and safe fashion. Working your muscles to fatigue will not necessarily create large, unsightly muscle mass. Even if you work your muscles to extreme fatigue, rest assured, that the majority of women are genetically unable to create large muscles because they lack sufficient hormones or body structure to do so.
All major muscle groups need to be worked to avoid muscular and postural imbalances. It is recommended that you choose a weight or load that produces muscle fatigue somewhere between 8-12 repetitions of an exercise for the upper body, and 12-15 repetitions for the lower body. Most current research recommends 1-3 sets per muscle group, depending on your goals and current fitness level. (A set is equal to the number of repetitions (8-12 or 12-15) you are currently able to do safely and with correct posture.) " |
.....so , in answer to your question, choose the weight that gets you a fatigue level at around 8-12 reps. If you can achieve that fatigue level using 5lbs - fine. But if you only get to that fatigue level at 25 reps using 5lbs., you need to increase the weight to more than 5 lbs - i.e 10 lbs, or 15 lbs. . So that lifting 10 lbs now brings you to that fatigue level at around 8-12 reps. | | |
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